Deep Space 9 Mafia - Game Over!

[MetalSonic]

No

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

So you just quoted me directly contradicting your statement.

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

Also, if my role is similar to Josh’s, and they are both confirmed, did anybody stop and think that stealing Orbs points to something other than Scum?

[MetalSonic]

It can be counterargued that there is only room for one town thief.

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

It can be counterargued that there’s only room for one protective role this game too. But you don’t see me make the argument because I don’t find it useful.

[pyx]

So you just quoted me directly contradicting your statement.

Maybe, but I think you’ve missed my point. And I hate trying to figure/force game mechanics – absolutely hate it. But I asked all players who’ve accessed an Orb about what was communicated. Urist said he got nothing about gaining an ability.

You had said much earlier;

Cats is the other player with an Orb I thought. _fferyllt had one apparently but we’ve lost it now that he’s gone.

Well, apparently it wasn’t gone if we are to believe what you’ve said today about the universe returning an Orb to you (Josh’s) without you’re targeting him (based on your saying Urist forbade you).

Josh had said the first time he took Judge’s Orb;

kind of. I took a strange glowing green orb, my role pm implies I need to find something by targeting the right person to do something not specified.
…
I’m ishka. I target a player nightly. If said player has anything I can take, and they are target able (hard to word without copying but I think it basically means some players are immune) then I take said thing. I leave something with them, hence your gift. If I get the right thing it changes my capabilities. [This seems to be what Andres now also has said, but regarding the Orb or a particular Orb fragment – yet he describes his role as “Orb Collector”.]
…
yea, orbs arent specifically mentioned in my role though, maybe based on how my results worded I’ll know when night comes if I get something new (it says something like I’ll look into it when I have time) but idk. it could be something else. if someone knows source flavour that would help

You claimed 7:30PM on Aug 27;

I’m Benjamin Sisko. I’m an Orb collector, and I targeted Judge N1 (who came up clean) and Josh last night, and stole his Orb. He’ll confirm when he gets on I’m sure. I haven’t analyzed the Orb yet, but I will tonight.

then later on Aug 28 at 12:54PM;

I don’t need to collect all the fragments. I would have failed at this already given that _fferyllt had one (that might have been taken or not, I don’t know actually). I also gain an ability once I collect an Orb, though there’s no mention of finding the right Orb, which I found interesting about Josh’s claim.

And yes the Wormhole Entities are the Prophets. It’s just an alternative name for them.

So, with Josh’s death we now know exactly what he meant, from the GM:

It’s possible that something you acquire could change your abilities.

However, we still don’t know about a possible added ability. Sure, maybe we could assume that if hey, he finds a player with an Orb (or fragment) he gains their Temple access ability, or maybe it was something else.

we did chat a bit in the temple QT last night, that helped.

i’d also be very interested to hear what happened after Josh stole from Judge, who I assume is Quark (Ishka’s son).

Josh said he had to look for something and target the right person … ? I wondered if that was like a traitor role… or lost wolf type role.

We KNOW Josh’s wincon:

You win when all threats to the Prophets have been eliminated or nothing can prevent that from happening.

So, he wasn’t a Traitor or Lost Wolf. Yes, he was looking for something, we don’t know what, and maybe it was just an Orb (fragment).

You have seemed to claim somewhat of a mirroring of Josh’s role. And you’ve claimed;

Just because you can’t make sense of game dynamics does not mean that the one guy who has a confirmed night action which is easy to understand and not in question is the one to doubt as the Scum. Unless you want to make an argument as to why I might be Scum (Mantis tried to, which I respect), then I’m going to have a problem with this.

I’ll agree that maybe a night action is confirmed – that is, that you got an Orb (fragment) or some Orb (fragments), but this does not confirm your role or win-con. You’re not as Josh said he was, an Innocent Child, just from having proven access to the Temple chat. “Orb Collector” as a role claim seems different from what we’ve seen of others gaining access to Temple chat.

That is, it’s still valid to scrutinise you for the mechanic speculation Mantis legitimately brought up – that maybe you’re a Traitor or Lost Wolf (as she speculated on Josh) who needs all the Orbs (fragments), maybe to become a full wolf. Yes, it’s just as probable that with the “Orb Collector” claim (and of not needing to collect all fragmets) you’re at least not the Sleepwalker, and/or that your “ability” gained is simply access to Temple chat. But when trying to work our way through every one of our claims it’s just as valid to look to you or Mantis or anyone (as I have) even when I’ve previously had you and Mantis and others as Town, even strong Town.

You said,

And if you are interested in why [cats seems sus?], it is stuff like this - the likelihood that the Scum would not discuss how they were going to use a PR, with MS then surprised that he was targeted with such a role, though possible , is ridiculous. That sounds like intentionally playing against your win condition. Why would you do that? And why would such a possibility, given how unlikely it is, be used as the reason that MS is now back in Cats’ lynch pool? Also, if there’s 3 Scum, and Nanook was just vigged, and one of the last 2 is being suspected, would you single out your last remaining Scum buddy so obviously?

Now, I’ve sussed cats along with everyone else, but I’ve also noted the fact that this game’s mafia have used distancing and bussing as a theme. FOSing MS on game mechanics seems almost out of the question (since none of us can figure the sleepwalk thingie), but YES, it is almost expected that the final scum would try to distance from each other. I’ve brought that up as even the prime reasons to look hard at MS and cats. Matis and Urist especially ran into rough D1 waters with mafia too, but no where near what we saw with MS and cats, if one of any of them is mafia. And looking at just how Nanook skirted around cabd, only hopping onto the cabd wagon at the last, maybe the divide between Mafia and MS and cats is too great and actually works rather in their favour? I don’t know. That’s why I’ve looked closer at every one of us.

I still have some difficulty wrapping an understanding around this:

Also, I have something relativey minor to report. I figured I would target a player unlikely to have an Orb because I had proven that I was who I claimed to be. So I visited Pyx. He did not have an Orb. However, since Josh was NK’ed, it looks like the universe decided to give me the Orb back (that’s who I originally chose to take the Orb from). I was also left with a scarf. Which means Josh picked me for the Orb stealing. Just as an FYI.

I also already explained that I was dissuaded by Urist from collecting a second Orb last night (and threatened with a vote, actually).

OK, so Josh’s Orb (fragment) comes to you, but you say you targeted me. That at least leads me to believe _fferyllt’s Orb (fragment) is still in play, likely going to who kilt him, unless you have a better explanation for why Josh’s came to you. I like you’re being honest that you have Josh’s fragment, and cetainly that Judge got her bauble back too gives me pause, but what would you think were you me?

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

Maybe, but I think you’ve missed my point. And I hate trying to figure/force game mechanics – absolutely hate it. But I asked all players who’ve accessed an Orb about what was communicated. Urist said he got nothing about gaining an ability.

I also asked Urist whether his PM says anything about Orbs, and he said no. That’s where the difference in language is.

Well, apparently it wasn’t gone if we are to believe what you’ve said today about the universe returning an Orb to you (Josh’s) without you’re targeting him (based on your saying Urist forbade you).

That’s correct, it wasn’t lost, though I did not know that at the time (obviously). And you can just ask Urist or Cats about what I am saying of Urist threatening me about the Orb - they were there and they can confirm.

I’ll agree that maybe a night action is confirmed

There’s no maybe here. I wasn’t in the Temple to start with, and then I was. For access, you need an Orb. I clearly took it from Josh (he confirmed), and nobody else lost an Orb, since the other two members were the same as the night before. So that is exactly what happened.

but this does not confirm your role or win-con.

Correct, it does not. But it didn’t for Josh either. You can only assume that I am aligned with the Prophets based on my gameplay, not the fact that I can take Orbs from others.

You’re not as Josh said he was, an Innocent Child, just from having proven access to the Temple chat.

This is incorrect. Josh did not claim he was confirmed Town because he could take Orbs. He claimed to have been confirmed Town because he performed a confirmed Night Action targeting a player when a different player was NK’ed and there was one Scum left. When did I say that I was confirmed Town?

That is, it’s still valid to scrutinise you for the mechanic speculation Mantis legitimately brought up – that maybe you’re a Traitor or Lost Wolf (as she speculated on Josh) who needs all the Orbs (fragments), maybe to become a full wolf.

You can speculate all you want, but I am clearly working against this if I am targeting players that do not have Orbs when I know who does.

Yes, it’s just as probable that with the “Orb Collector” claim (and of not needing to collect all fragmets) you’re at least not the Sleepwalker, and/or that your “ability” gained is simply access to Temple chat. But when trying to work our way through every one of our claims it’s just as valid to look to you or Mantis or anyone (as I have) even when I’ve previously had you and Mantis and others as Town, even strong Town.

I did not say you could not look through my claims. What I did say, had you been paying attention, is that it is the only reason anybody seems to be arguing that I am Scum, except for Mantis (who has other reasons), and that it is not a good reason.

Now, I’ve sussed cats along with everyone else, but I’ve also noted the fact that this game’s mafia have used distancing and bussing as a theme.

This contrast you are establishing is not reflected in the gameplay. Nanook was literally bussing Cats D1, voting for him based on a meta read that did not exist, almost getting him lynched (with others agreeing that it was valid, including Mantis), and also voted for Cabd putting him at L-1 D1. So… what are you saying exactly? Oh, later you go on to say that the divide might be… too great? So, you suspect the guy that has a Confirmed Night Action despite the fact that you have mostly said that my gameplay is probably coming from Town, because you can’t fathom that Nanook would be so aggressive against fellow Scum? Hm.

And looking at just how Nanook skirted around cabd, only hopping onto the cabd wagon at the last, maybe the divide between Mafia and MS and cats is too great and actually works rather in their favour? I don’t know. That’s why I’ve looked closer at every one of us.

Yeah, it is wrong for one of them, I would agree. But out of the two, which one is less likely you think, of having suffered from it as Scum? Cats, when the three Scum were around and Nanook was doing it, or MS, when there were 2 left and 1 was heavily suspected?

OK, so Josh’s Orb (fragment) comes to you, but you say you targeted me. That at least leads me to believe _fferyllt’s Orb (fragment) is still in play, likely going to who kilt him, unless you have a better explanation for why Josh’s came to you.

You actually already know this for a fact - Urist has it. I also asked him, and he confirmed that it came to him after _fferyllt’s death.

I like you’re being honest that you have Josh’s fragment, and cetainly that Judge got her bauble back too gives me pause, but what would you think were you me?

I would believe you, since the incentive you would have to disclose this is 0, like I also explained.

[Mental (Judge)]

I didn’t get my bauble back.

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

@Pyx, do you still have one shot of the bodyguard power?

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

I have an idea for a gambit, but it requires that you have this.

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

Actually never mind, I just thought through it and it probably does not work.

I will explain it anyway, not to leave anyone hanging (and also say why it fails).

Say I publicly announce who I will steal an Orb from. Now, we know the sleepwalking and the Orb stealing are separate, so unless you think that I have the power to do both (which I don’t), if I succeed in stealing said Orb and the Scum try to NK that player, then Pyx can use his 1-shot left of the Bodyguard and help the Town sort him without having to lynch him. Also, if the Scum don’t target that player, but target anybody other than me, then you know I’m Confirmed Town.

After thinking through it though, I realized that the Scum might simply not make a player sleepwalk, if said power is a thing, just to avoid having me as Confirmed Town (or if this is a factional ability, then also it does not work since theoretically I could be stealing an Orb and making a player sleepwalk). Also, if the Scum target me, obviously you know I’m not the Scum and we avoid mislynching me, but then I would be gone and Pyx would still have to be sorted. However, it would leave Judge Mental in the game, who is as good as Confirmed Town in my mind. So yeah, for what it’s worth.

[Urist]

Didn’t you already steal an orb from Josh on a night that MS was roofied sleepwalked? Night 2 right?

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

Yeah that’s accurate.

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

Listen I know it’s not me. Obviously. I had forgotten about that. But technically if the sleepwalking is a factional ability it does not clear me.

[pyx]

Well I’m satisfied with Andres, and too tired to do much more research through 5k posts.

[fferyllt (fairlylit)]

VC 4-22 (No Change)

pyx: 2 (Judge Mental, catspurr)
catspurr: 2 (Urist, Andresvmb)
Urist: 1 (Metal Sonic)
Metal Sonic: 1 (Mantis)

Not voting: 1 (pyx)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: September 15, 2018 4:00 AM

This topic will close automatically 30 minutes after the deadline.

Mod Notes:

Links
Day 1 Start: Deep Space 9 Mafia - Game Over!
Day 2 Start: Deep Space 9 Mafia - Game Over!
Day 3 Start: Deep Space 9 Mafia - Game Over!
Day 4 Start: Deep Space 9 Mafia - Game Over!

[Andresvmb (Andrés)]

So this is coming down to the wire, huh? Well, what are we going to do? I see Mantis is opposed to voting for Cats. @Judge, where do you stand? Are we going to have to sort the Miller today?

[Mental (Judge)]

yes sort the claimed miller PLUS

[pyx]

Alas, I thought I had found a way overnight to solve the game based on flavour, but I was wrong, as indeed fferyllt would usually insure. Looks like cats or MS to me, but I’ll agree to sorting the Miller. I won’t vote mrself though, esp. since it won’t end the game.

[pyx]

VOTE: Metal Sonic