I don’t really think Andres would, is the thing. He seemed more cautious in flipflap.
I completely disagree with both the conclusion and the facts. You’re correct on Day 1, that Andres was first there when the count looked like this:
Josh: 3 (Urist, Metal Sonic, Cabd)
Mantis: 1 (Srceenplay)
Metal Sonic: 1 (Josh)
Nanook: 1 (catspurr)
catspurr: 1 (Nanook)
_fferyllt: 1 (Judge Mental)
Srceenplay: 1 (Mantis)
Not voting: 4 (smilodon, _fferyllt, pyx, Andresvmb)
Notice Andres didn’t yet have a vote down. The wagons had moved from you to cats to inActionDan to Josh, with the Josh wagon being stable for a while and Scum!Nanook still pushing cats hard (with the cats wagon having formed with Scum!Nanook, ActionDan, and Scum!skitter30 - and amidst replacements for ActionDan & skitter (and AKFD & parsec) - meaning Andres was voting a mostly absent slot at the time).
So, yes, Andres starts the cabd voting but it’s just another 1 vote among many. Nanook put cabd at L-1, and believe it or not I was just about ready to vote there when you, Nanook, and Andres move to wagon to another absentee, smilodon. The movement is no surprise to me as scum strategy, and I don’t think the quick move clears Andres at all but rather incriminates.
Day 2 your facts are wrong. Andres opened voting Judge with you ‘mistakingly’ voting first on cabd followed by Mantis and Judge. You soon declared you had misremembered who was who and had meant to vote Judge and so did. The cabd wagon dissolves in favour of a Judge wagon Andres started. When the cabd wagon starts again Judge is still there as the first vote but Andres only appears first due to a GM vc error.
I agree it would seem maybe odd that Andres moves off Judge who’s at 3 to tie up cabd with Judge at 2 while saying nothing about cabd and actually still FOSing Judge (#1927). Though here’s what’s officially posted, though it’s in error. Andres may have though it was just another 1 vote.
Judge Mental: 2 (Urist, Metal Sonic)
Mantis: 1 (Srceenplay)
Srceenplay: 1 (Mantis)
Cabd: 1 (Anresvmb) [supposed to include Judge’s vote here, who had been there since early that day and alerted the GM to it]
It’s maybe no big deal on reading Andres, but Andres is not first on cabd my any means, even if maybe he thought he was this 2nd time (after Urist, Mantis, and Judge had been there earlier and Judge never left). Urist and others indicate a willingness to vote cabd with cats voting there and the GM again prodding cabd.
Andres had been working on a case against cats, though he does post to me that, “I don’t have Cabd as spewed Town because I know Nanook would have bussed fellow Scum at the deadline to look better, and he seemed to not want to do it until the very end. I also highlighted Cabd’s vote against Josh (and particularly, the explanation) as suspicious, so there’s that too”
That’s when cabd shows up with his fake track on MS, with Andres, Judge, and cats immediately dropping their cabd votes. In long WOTs Andres is FOSing Judge, Screen, Mantis, and Urist; but the day becomes a death match between cabd and MS.
It’s all MS for a long while, with MS self-preserving a vote on Josh, taking Josh to 3, but then starting the vote on cabd when the Josh wagon falters. Andres actually pushed the MS wagon to L-1 at 5 (#2941) and me telegraphing a willingness to vote there too. It’s NOT Andres, but cats who supports MS by moving to cabd as the 2nd vote (though pretty indecisively). Then Urist joins in tieing the wagons at 3. Mantis leaves off Josh saying she too will vote cabd. Judge puts cabd into the lead. Only then, when cabd is certainly going down, does Andres vote cabd, with this:.
You’re right that it would have been easy for Andres to either ignore the wagon or pretend to be away, and maybe if it’s a bus a Scum!Andres does more of a “DIE SCUM!” post, but I’d think scum certainly want to bus here. I think they wanted to bus cabd all day, at least maybe 'till cabd came up with a “Wait, guys, let me try this” move on MS.
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I think this was around the time when Urist was declaring that MS was for sure town. This was when the idea of MS being repossessed was a thing. I have to look back to see why it is Urist had him as for certain town.
But urist vouching for MS town, making cabd lynch more likely, makes for more town points for Urist. I guess the only scum motivation would be too get bussing cred. Then again this might also have been when he thought neither should be lynched. I’ll take a look at it again… right now, if i can
I don’t know so much about that. Urist certainly wasn’t declaring MS as for sure town. I had indicated a willing to hammer MS who was at L-1. It’s even maybe surprising scum didn’t jump there if MS is Town (LOL, I think a Scum!Mantis or a Scum!Judge would). I think maybe even a scum could have talked themselves out of whatever fallout came if they hammered a Town!MS there. Here’s what Urist said:
I said I wanted to wait before hammering MS, and Urist was, “Don’t worry about it pyx. It looks like we’re not getting any other lynch today so I’ll be around to hammer when the time comes.
I’m just doing a read with the assumption that MS is gonna flip town, because if he does, I might not be around tomorrow.”
So definitely not “for sure” town, but more a “likely town”.
I think it’s the “no-lynch” concept that moves cats off MS.
And yes, you might disagree, esp. since you and Urist started the day voting cabd, but I really think mafia came into Day2 ready to bus cabd, 'till the Tracker gambit. So when the vote started to swing back to cabd I’d expect mafia to hop on, unless like Urist saiz, they just wanted to hide their eyes.
Also, if the sleepwalk is a game mechanic or even a do-nothing-but-spread-WIFOM role (if MS has now decided to be honest and the role has only been used on VTs and we wouldn’t know), it worries me a bit that IF the remaining scum is simply a no-power Goon, maybe there ARE two of them left.
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Guys, sorry for not posting as much. I’m in the middle of a trip. I’ll get back to this tonight.
On Cabd, I think I already provided an explanation from my point of view about the votes there (and my involvement). Clearly that has not changed. See #3742 and the first paragraph on #3937.
I somehow doubt that the sleepwalk was a wifom Role by ffery because cabd might have been using it to tricking me that I have visited muffina while sleepwalking
Taking into account that cabd might have been using it as fake tracker on me, it should be a scum power
However, it could also be a wifom role part of scum’s factional ability that does nothing
cabd even convinced me myself that I could have visited muffina, only because of the sleepwalking thing. So, I think the combo points towards it being a scum power
But it could be an extra factional ability, along with the kill, so it is not tied to any particular scum players role
I am not convinced that Scum wanted to bus a Power Role of theirs all day - I think they found themselves in that situation because Cabd had played a bad D1, and he had succeeded (or rather, failed) in flipping everyone’s view of the slot from when Skitters was around. It’s funny, I even praised Skitters’ slot but said that the only thing that I would view as Scummy is the apparent lack of paranoia. I also recall Cats being slightly suspicious of the “walls of posts”. In any case, Cabd probably just had to post more and early D2 and maybe we wouldn’t have focused on him so hard (him never explaining his vote on Josh for example did not help his case in my mind). But he didn’t, and we did, and then he came with his claim nonsense that ultimately got him lynched.
The main issue I have with this line of thinking though is that it completely discounts the good work that Town did. If the Scum was intent on bussing, then surely nobody’s vote on Cabd matters and we can look at everyone on the wagon regardless of what argument they made or when they jumped on. I’m not trying to say that it clears me. But what I am trying to say is that part of my Town read of Judge for example is based on her good work there (and her insistence that it was a good vote). It also helps shape my view of Cats. Also, I had gotten into a bit of a bitter dispute with Judge, and that was driving my vote. I had to eat shit, recognize I was wrong about my view of Judge’s interactions with Nanook, and switch to Cabd, who Judge was Scum reading.
I also know this isn’t much comfort, but think about why Srceenplay would bother to use a protective on me instead of anybody else.
As a side note, I don’t want people to focus so much on how my play here compares to FlipFlappers, because the fact that it’s role heavy means that as Scum, I would approach this game quite differently.
That’s fair enough. Just know I’m scrutinising your iso now. Don’t give me flak about tunneling, I’ll explain later, but right at this moment I’m thinking it’s you or Urist, and Urist has the race read on Judge going for him.
I agree with this. Cabd does not try out his fake claim if he doesn’t know for sure that you either visited another player (or tried to), or sleepwalked. Otherwise, your counter is way too easy and you just argue incessantly for his lynch.
This is my updated view of the game, without having re-read D3 in detail:
Town Reads, Would Not Lynch:
{Cats, Judge Mental}
Would be against lynching, but not a strong Town read:
{Metal Sonic}
Neutral, not a strong view either way:
{Mantis, Urist}
Negative Lean, would vote for:
{Pyx}
I think Cats and Judge are Town in this game. I will probably stay away from voting you guys today. MS would be a stronger Town read if not for the fact that MS lied about your Power Role, affecting the overall analysis of the game and probably leaning people more negatively against Srceenplay. Nanook focusing so heavily on Cats will probably keep me away from Cats for now. I didn’t like Cats’ wide lynch pool, but it shows that Cats doesn’t trust anybody (which is kind of like how I feel).
I think the Scum is amongst Mantis, Urist and Pyx. However, I don’t have strong feelings any which way. Pyx is at the bottom because he needs to be sorted, but frankly some of his contributions make it so that I don’t feel the urgent need to sort him quickly (and only if no other consensus is reached). However, I don’t know if we’ll get Town consensus any other way, so that might just have to happen.
My reasons for mistrusting Urist I have expressed throughout, but I’m having second thoughts and after Srceenplay, I am doubting my instincts here. The thing about the Racecop thing is that I told Urist I would be happy to be investigated. And it was not me that proposed for it to be Josh or me at the Temple. If I recall correctly, I proposed Judge, and then I was reminded that that had happened already (I wanted more certainty that Judge was Town). Cats initially proposed Pyx, but then said that Josh or I would make sense. I said that either would be fine, and re-emphasized what my role was. I also don’t recall Urist making it obvious that he would go for Josh.
Mantis is a black hole of uncertainty for me. Urist is convinced Mantis is Town. I’m really not. I think it’s 50/50. I’m swinging wildly on my read here because something just does not feel right. From the pre-emptive move towards Urist at the end of D3, to the hammer on Cabd, to Mantis basically leaving me as an option every single day without committing to it… This is probably my next ISO.
—
Srceen was also working a serious case on Mantis, and I’ve backed off of you for a while now (since the beginning of D2), going as far as to call you one of my strongest Town reads (I still maintain that). I don’t think this makes me Scum.
The point about Cabd perhaps backing off Urist because he thought that he might have been mason together with MS(?) is weird. The way I remember that interaction, there simply seemed to be some confusion about what Pyx had claimed, with Srceen calling him a Mason instead of a Miller. It was quickly cleared up if I recall. I am staring at Josh’s #851 and Urist’s #860, and Srceenplay’s follow up in #863. Why anybody is using that to clear Urist is beyond me.
This is Cabd taking something I said as a softclaim with MS on d2. Not sure what it was he saw… but in my mind it looks like Cabd cleared MS accidentally here.
It doesn’t really clear me because it could be a planned thing between me and Cabd, but if anyone wants to think it does clear me then I won’t stop them. :shrug:
This game.
I’m not saying I’m back to square 1 but on an iso of Andres it really doesn’t look like him. The voting is still suspect to me but the arguments with both cabd and Nanook look genuine and he goes into pretty good detail especially FOSing Nanook.
I think it was Andre that said he didn’t like how broad my scum pick list was.
And then Mantis votes Urist and everyone points out how dicey MS has looked all game and I am back to square one.
I think a lot of us are now town reading pyx, which makes it hard to get consenses.
I am starting to lean toward sorting Metal before pyx.
But then I come up on that word ‘sort’ , sort implies an each way bet, they may or may not be scum it’s a 50/50 call so like decide by killing them.
Not the best way to play a game, but with this majority voting and the NoLynch specter hovering over everyone, it puts pressure on deciding to Sort rather than a fair dickum let’s lynch the scum.
like = Let’s
I was just about to quote pyx… and say, MS ?
I’m going through my posts day 2 a bit… because I found it slightly odd that he clears judge for her position on cabd… but I think I also played a part. Will post later when I finish reading on that.
I can only do it while on a computer… some with ISo ing andre which I want to do.
I’m pretty much townreading pyx, and I dont really want to lynch him…not 100% but ya. He’s my early morning posting buddy.
I hope to get to a computer later tonight
He being andre (2nd paragraph)